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By Mark D, May 21, 2011 9:49 pm

I consider myself a connoisseur of bad NHL trades. Especially with the time I have spent breaking down Milbury trades. Now in my opinion, nothing was worse then the Olli Jokinen/Roberto Luongo for Mark Parrish/Oleg Kvasha. Jokinen and Luongo both became All-Stars, while Parrish and Kvasha did almost nothing. But the standing notion is that the worst NHL trade in history is the Lindros trade to the Flyers for Forsberg  and a handful of prospects/picks. The common stance is that while the Avs became an elite team and won Multiple Cups, the Flyers only made the Stanley Cup Finals once and were swept by the Red Wings.

I think this is horribly slanting things against the Flyers. Lindros made them an elite team and had some great seasons. Unfortunately the failing of the Flyers was the always changing situation in Net. While the Sabres had Dominik Hasek, the Rangers had Richter, The Pens had Barasso, the Caps had Kolzig, the Panthers had Beezer, the Devils had Brodeur, the Leafs had Potvin and Joseph, and so on. While the east seemed to be overflowing with elite goalies, the Flyers were alone in not having a really great goalie. Now while Hextall was good, his time had passed. At the same time Snow, Boucher and the other Flyers goalies were good but not that good. It’s not surprising that in a period of time in which the league seemed to rely on clutch and grab and top goaltending, that the Flyers struggled.

But the Flyers still managed to make a good run of things. Meanwhile the Avs managed to fleece Patrick Roy, widely considered the best goalie in the league, who became the cornerstone of their runs to the Cup. One can only imagine what might have happened if Roy was playing for the Flyers instead of Snow for the season they made it to the Finals.

How do the two teams line up? It’s time for a breakdown of their standings from 92-93 to 99-00

92-93
Nordiques 47-27-10 104 .619 Lost in Round 1
Flyers 36-37-11 83 .494 out of playoffs

93-94
Nordiques 34-42-8 76 .452 Out of Playoffs
Flyers 35-39-10 80 .476 Out Of Playoffs

95
Nordiques 30-13-5 65 .677 Lost in Round 1
Flyers 28-16-4 60 .625 Lost in Round 3

95-96
Nordiques 47-25-10 104 .634 Won Cup
Flyers 45-24-13 107 .628 Lost in Round 2

96-97
Avalanche 49-24-9 107 .652 Lost in Round 3
Flyers 45-24-13 103 .628 Lost in Finals

97-98
Avalanche 39-26-17 95 .579 Lost in Round 1
Flyers 42-29-11 95 .579 Lost in Round 1

98-99
Avalanche 44-28-10 98 .598 Lost in Round 3
Flyers 37-26-19 94 .567 Lost in Round 1

99-00
Avalanche 42-28-11-1 96 .585 Lost in Round 3
Flyers 45-22-12-3 105 .640 Lost in Round 3

For much of Lindros’ time with the Flyers they were pretty much on an even footing with the Avs. But the goaltending struggles is obviously the difference here. For an Example, here’s Patrick Roy’s save percentages in the playoffs for the Avs: .921 .932 .906 .920 .928

In Comparison here’s Hextall’s playoff save percentages:
.904 .915 .892
Boucher’s:
.917
Snow’s
.892
Beezer:
.938

Look, if you put Roy on the Flyers, they are probably just as dominate as the Avs were. The thought that the Lindros to the Flyers trade is “One of the worst” in NHL History is overblown. Both teams joined the elite of their conference not too long after the trade. The rise of the Nordiques was long in coming as they were bad for years before. It ignores all their drafts (including the addition of Joe Sakic) and movements of their own to get better.  The Lindros deal in the end was basically Forseberg for Lindros. There were a lot of spare pieces, and the draft picks became Fiset and Baumgartner.

For a trade to be truly bad, it should dam near destroy one team and make another a powerhouse. Head to Head the Flyers matched the Avs/Nords almost every season. The difference was Roy in net. Had the Flyers ever had an answer to the struggles in net they probably would have won at least 1 Cup. There’s nothing in this trade that says if the Flyers don’t trade for Lindros they win the Cup instead. If anything they might have finished even worse then they did.

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By admin, January 10, 2010 8:42 pm

Last year I did a blog about Brodeur compared to his backups. One of the reasons I did it was because of all the love being heaped upon Devils savior Scott Clemmensen. The fact of the matter was that Clemmensen was an average (at best) goalie who was playing for a defense first team. I was deathly afraid that the Islanders might be one of those teams that fell for his great run and sign him for a few years for too much money. Fortunately they went with Roloson who has been spectacular despite being 40 years old.

Instead it was almost surprisingly the Panthers who dished out money for Clemmensen while having the grossly underrated Thomas Vokoun as starter. Meanwhile they allowed Craig Anderson to sign with the Avalanche. So how did everything work out for all involved?

Vokoun continues to be silently spectacular. On a better team or a better market he would be appreciated.

Anderson has helped to bring the Avs back to respect and shortened their apparent rebuilding by leaps and bounds.

And Clemmensen? Before this season he only once managed a SV% over .900 and he’s at .888. His GAA went from 2.39 to 3.53 (Vokoun is 2.56 right now). In all his games, he’s only let in 1 goal once and has no shutouts. He’s been pulled from games twice in 11 starts. He has proven that he’s not a NHL starter or backup unless he’s playing for the Devils.

His replacement in NJ? Yan Danis only has 4 games this season, but currently has career highs in GAA (2.00) and SV% (.929). Considering that Danis couldn’t even hold onto a backup job with the worst team in the league last year, this once again proves the point that anyone can play behind the Devils defense and look good.

I wanted to add on that I hope Brodeur doesn’t make the Hall Of Fame. I know he has all the records. I know he’s broken records people never thought would be broken. I for one believe that just about any goalie who played for the Devils for the same period of time would have the same record. Its nothing against him, he’s had some great playoff runs and definitely won games others would ave lost. But statistically Brodeur matches all of his backups stats. It doesn’t matter, Marty will be a first ballot HoF’er and I’ll be here arguing that Osgood deserves to be in. At least Osgood played for other teams.

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By admin, March 21, 2009 7:01 pm

So with Martin Brodeur overtaking Roy in all time wins, the question has been whether Brodeur plays in a great system or is a great goalie.

Well I decided one of the best ways to see what the Devils system does for Goalies is to compare the Mid 90s Devils Goalies (Terreri, Schwab and Dunham) who were all highly rated in their time with the Devils and to see how they did once they left Jersey. Terreri and Schwab were both traded in deals for 2nd round picks. Dunham was the first selection of the Preds in the Expansion draft and was their starter for a few seasons.

One can argue that Terreri and Schwab were backups at best, but teams believed that they could improve their goaltending and were willing to part with a prized second round pick for them. So how do their averages compare between the Devils and other teams?

I’m using Clemmensen as a sort of neutral marker. He didn’t look particullary good when playing for the Devils before this season, so its worth a look to compare him. I ignored Beezer, who was at the end of his career and was a proven goalie. I also ignored Weekes, who wasn’t in the Devils system till this year.

Chris Terreri
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
93-94 Devils      44      2.72   .907  2
94-95 Devils       15     2.53    .900  0
95-96 Devils        4       2.57   .902  0
98-99 Devils       12      2.48   .898   1
99-00 Devils      12      3.42   .876  0
00-01 Devils      10      2.78   .874  0
Devils Average  16.1   2.75  .893   .5

Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
95-96 Sharks     46      3.70   .883   0
96-97 Sharks     22      2.75   .901   0
96-97 BHawks    7       2.66    .901   0
97-98 BHawks   21      2.41    .906   2
00-01 Isles          8       2.44    .912    0
Other Average  20.8  2.79   .906    .4

Corey Schwab
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
95-96 Devils      10      2.18   .899    0
02-03 Devils      11      1.47   .933    1
03-04 Devils       3       0.64   .971    1
Devils Average  4.6    1.43   .934    .66

Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
96-97 TBLight   31     3.04    .897   2
97-98 TBLight   16     2.92    .892    1
98-99 TBLight   40     3.52    .891    0
99-00 Canucks   6      3.57    .861    0
01-02 Leafs        30     2.73   .894     1
Other Average  24.6  3.15   .887     .8

Mike Dunham
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
96-97 Devils      26      2.55  .906    2
97-98 Devils      15       2.25  .913    1
Devils Average 20.5   2.40  .909   1.5

Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
98-99 Preds        44      3.08   .908  1
99-00 Preds        52      2.85   .908  0
00-01 Preds        48      2.28    .923  4
01-02 Preds         58      2.61   .906  3
02-03 Preds        15       3.15    .892  0
02-03 Rangers   43       2.29    .924  5
03-04 Rangers   57       3.03   .896   2
05-06 Thrash      17      2.77   .893   1
06-07 Isles           19      3.74    .889  0
Other Average     44.1  3.23     .904  2

Martin Broduer
Devils Average
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Devils                 61.75  2.20   .914  6.3

Scott Clemmensen
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
08-09 Devils      40     2.39   .917   2

Schwab, Terreri and Dunham’s Devils stats average
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Devils                   13.7   2.19    .912  .88

Their Non Devils stats average
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Other                    29.8  3.05    .899  1.06

In Comparison to Broduer while with Devils
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Devils(Backup) 13.7    2.19    .912  .88
Devils(Marty)   61.75  2.20   .914  6.3

In Comparison to Broduer while with Others
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Other                    29.8    3.05    .899  1.06
Devils(Marty)   61.75  2.20   .914  6.3

In Comparison to Clemmensen while with Devils
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Devils(Backup) 13.7    2.19    .912  .88
Devils(Clem)      40        2.39   .917   2

In Comparison to Clemmensen while with Others
Team                     GP     GAA    SV%  SO
Other                    29.8    3.05    .899  1.06
Devils(Clem)      40        2.39   .917   2

In whats a somewhat amazing stat info, during their time as backups to Broduer the trio managed almost identical stats to what Broduer has averaged over the years except for shutouts which is due to the disparity of games played. When playing for other teams the same trio managed to drop their GAA by .80 and their SV% by .15.

When compared to Clemmensen when backups with the Devils the trio managed a better GAA by .20 but a slightly lower Sv% by .05. But when compared to the Trio when they weren’t on the Devils, Clemmensen clearly outshines them with a .66 improvement in GAA and a .18 better in Sv%.

Personally I think this shows that the Devils have had one hell of a run with Brodeur, and Brodeur probably fits perfectly in their system. Out of the Trio, the only one that might have worked out for the Devils was Dunham. Of course, Brodeur is still playing and Dunham is currently retired.

It also helps that the Devils knew what they had in Brodeur from the start. His whole career he’s played 60+ games a year (obviously minus this season and the strike shortened season) while Roy didn’t reach 60 games till his sixth season in the league. Despite the two cup wins for Roy with the Canadiens, they weren’t nearly as good of a team when compared to the Devils team Brodeur started with or the Avs team that Roy played with.